The Water We Swim In: An Interview with Regina and Rev. Hank Hunt by Emily Turner

Hank and Regina Hunt are both covenant partners of Retreat House Spirituality Center and members of First Presbyterian Church in downtown Dallas. Regina, a trained spiritual director, and Hank, a former pastor and now a counselor in private practice, are especially skilled at listening to others as well as themselves.

While their upbringings were somewhat different - hers in Ohio and Hank’s in West Texas, God has given them both a heart for exploring racial reconciliation in both their lives as well as leading others into a space of racial healing. As our country’s racial wounds are being exposed in both old and new ways, the Hunts spent time responding to some intimate questions. I’m grateful.

It seems so many of us desire integration and wholeness, better understanding and especially movement forward as we’re confronted with pain, disgust, anger, shame, denial, and disbelief, to name just a few feelings, as our country and communities still suffer from racial divide and hurt.

Hank and Regina’s sharing of their journey helped me to turn inward as I begin to take steps forward in my own journey. I found their responses candid, generous and helpful.

My hope is that their words might also give you hope.

Q. What does the word racism mean to you? 

Regina Hunt – In recent years when I hear the word racism, I sense an internal clenching, a guarding of myself, because the word is fraught with so much that feels wrong on so many levels.  The more I have studied, observed, and learned, I am beginning to realize that it seems bottomless.  It has been described as the “water we swim in” and I am not a swimmer.  I’m not sure that I could save myself in the water so bottomless has an ominous connotation for me.  I am, however, setting that discomfort aside and digging deep to learn and advocate for change from this system in which we live.

Hank Hunt – Racism is an evil that includes multiple manifestations.  From an individual (and tribal) perspective, racism involves beliefs, attitudes and behaviors that demonstrate a perspective that one’s race is superior to other races.  That superiority is supported by the power possessed by the group that sees itself as superior.  Racism can be unconscious as a result of cultural influences. From a sociological perspective, racism is a systemic evil that determines the manner in which one race controls social and economic institutions that subjugate and withhold power from other races.  Again, those who belong to the race with power may be conscious or unconscious regarding those racist social structures.  From a personal perspective and as a member of the group in my nation that possesses social power, I am aware of my own racism as something I and responsible to address and seek to remedy.  

Q. In the past, racial healing might have only been considered an issue for some people, but now, it is part of all of our stories, because it is woven into the history of our country. What insight might you share or word of wisdom to our community as, together, we are being shown the deep wounds that still exist in this area?

RH – As we are beginning to wrestle with racism as something etched into our society and culture it is inevitable to feel shock, disbelief, horror and denial.  It is almost too much to take in at times. I believe it is grief that we are feeling. Seeing ourselves in the light being shone on us is a death of something in us.  Perhaps an obliviousness and that is especially true for persons who have not been the overt definition of a racist – the haters, denigrators, etc. When we can understand that grief requires engaging the reality of what is, we experience many feelings – sadness, anger, maybe shame and so many others.  Those feelings must be acknowledged and accepted before we can move toward healing and a new way of being and seeing ourselves.

HH - In white America, white people, myself included, are inherently racists if, for no other reason than the fact that we all benefit from a social and economic system that has always been supported by racist norms, attitudes, behaviors and laws.  My task begins with my awareness and understanding of my own racism and enjoyment of white privilege. The most effective way I can break through my own denial is through education, conversation and interaction with others within my own and other races. 

Any way that education, conversation and interaction with the white community and with members of other races can be encouraged or implemented needs actively to be promoted by churches, educational institutions, and groups within our families, neighborhoods and communities.  In addition, individuals of all races who are committed to the elimination of racism must band together to oppose inequitable laws and economic practices that perpetuate systemic racism in the community, state and nation.  Conversation and interaction are vital.

Q. When did you get into the space of racial reconciliation? What drew you here? Was it a call? Will you describe?

RH - My entrance to this space has been gradual over many years.  I first became aware of it as a teen in the 1960s, but it was “in the South” and I lived in the North.  There were no segregated lunch counters, bathrooms or drinking fountains in my world. I now realize that the racism was veiled rather than “in your face” and took more the form of specific neighborhoods and the schools that served them, at least in my recollection and awareness. 

As a young and middle-aged adult, I was busy with my life and racism wasn’t on my radar.  I lived in a predominantly white neighborhood in Ohio and reared my child there.  Real school desegregation began to come about with busing and our neighborhood school was part of that busing program.  Half of our neighborhood children were bused to a mostly black neighborhood school and the black children came to ours.  There was much grumbling and some neighbors moved farther out of the city but it was mostly peaceful. 

One thing I have come to understand from that time is that my child did not make and retain friendships with her classmates at that school, and I believe it had everything to do with the 2 hours she spent on a bus each day.  When were the children able to get to know each other and forge relationships if they were whisked away at the end of the school day and couldn’t play together?

Fast forward to recent decades when more of the true history of racism and white supremacy has been uncovered (at least for those of us in white skin), I began to pay more attention.  I missed being a part of working for Civil Rights in the 1960s as I was too young and my parents didn’t see that as our responsibility.  I have since wondered if I would have the courage to do the right thing when challenged to stand up and participate in working for change.  I now realize that I can do that and see it as my responsibility to change whatever I can in my own little part of the world. 

HH - I was reared in an extremely segregated, racist community and family.  My family venerated my great grandfather who was a whipping master in the Ku Klux Klan.  The only Blacks I saw until adulthood were domestic workers.  The only African American individual with whom I ever interacted was a man who worked in my dad’s wholesale seed warehouse.  (He taught me to play checkers.)  It was not until I left my hometown to attend seminary that my eyes were opened to see the evils that racism inflicted against African Americans. 

In my first pastorate in a small West Texas town, I saw the same evil directed toward Hispanics.  After coming to Dallas as a young minister in a large church, I begin to see more blatant evidence of the manner in which racism was at work, especially toward African Americans.  This, also, was during the civil rights struggles of the Sixties.  Throughout the rest of my adult life, I have been committed to addressing racial inequities and have sought to do so in many ways.  However, it was not until the rise of the Black Lives Matter movement that I have seriously turned inward to examine my own unconscious racist biases. 

Many years ago, I thought I had discarded my own racism as one might turn off a light switch.  Increasingly, I understand the transformation from racism as a process that is far more complex.

Q. Were you surprised by this call? Did it make sense? Did you know right away - how did you discern?

RH – No, I was not surprised rather I was surprised that is took so long, but when the idea came it was strong, like a call.  Something within me rose up and said, “yes!”

HH – I was surprised by the realization that I needed to examine myself, to listen and learn, to change.

Q. What was the first manifestation of this calling? Will you describe what it looked like? A talk? An offering? A prayer?

RH – When the Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown murders were reported in the news something shifted in me.  The injustice of it hit like a ton of bricks, and I began to pay real attention. Hank and I went to hear the leader of the Ferguson Commission at a presentation at Communities and Foundations of Texas and learned about Dallas’ Project Unity.  We then participated in Retreat House’s Conversations on Racism where the idea of working toward racial justice came alive and, at the urging of two of our associate pastors, we began to plan how we could start this work at First Presbyterian Church of Dallas. 

HH  - Regina and I have been aware of and concerned over the national increase of overt and blatant racism that followed the last presidential election.  We were inspired (I think that is an appropriate term) to begin participating in the Conversations on Racism lead by Rev. Dr. Clay Brantley at Retreat House.  As an outgrowth of our participation there, we approached the senior minister of our congregation, First Presbyterian Church in Dallas, to discuss the implementation of a racial conversation group there.

Our pastor had been recently called to this position.  He is the first African American pastor in our church’s history.  Wisely, he wanted to move into racism issues slowly.  He was, however, very supportive of our plan, and we were able to initiate an integrated group focused on conversations around racism.  Following the murder of George Floyd, our pastor has initiated within the congregation weekly Zoom conversations with other ministers and civic leaders (Mike Rawlings, Ron Kirk and others).  These conversations are followed later in each week by the audience responding in small Zoom groups of which Regina and I are privileged to participate in leadership.

Q. I know you and Hank are on this path together. Was it always like this? Did you find that your callings in this space naturally emerged or did you work to blend them together? How did you manage this?

RH – Our call to this has been joint but different.  Hank’s early years were much more filled with overt racism than mine.  When the idea of working more consciously came for me, Hank was also on board.

HH – Regina and I are very much in sync in our shared interest and commitment to contribute in some way to the work of dismantling racism.

Q. You've hosted conversations around Racism at First Pres -- how did you get involved? What power do you think can come from sharing our laments and confessions in discussion like this?

RH – As a result of the meeting at CFT and conversations with our associate pastors, we began to plan how we could begin.  We had a series of interim senior pastors in that period and were nearing a call of a new senior pastor just when we were ready to begin.  We are a predominantly white congregation and our Pastor Nominating Committee announced the call to a young black man.  We were overjoyed and excited, BUT we realized that beginning conversations on race right after we had called a black pastor might send an unintended and wrong message to him, the congregation and the community so it was put on hold. 

During his preparation time for arrival, our associate pastor apprised him of our preliminary work and intentions so he would not be blind-sided.  When he arrived, he assured us he approved and supported the effort wholeheartedly. The mixed group (black, white, Hispanic) began in February and continues bi-weekly meetings.  Our group is now in the process of focusing on possible action plans after months of conversation, getting to know each other, and learning more about the issues.

HH – I think I addressed this earlier, but I would add that the conversations occurring in our congregation are inspiring increased awareness and commitment on the part of many congregants as well as gently pushing against some denial on the part of others.  What is being modeled is respect for diverse perspectives and a willingness to listen to one another.  What is really important is that we in the church are now talking intensely about a reality that the church has never seriously and publicly addressed with energy, intelligence and love.

Q. For those that are interested in hosting their own conversation on racism, how do you recommend they get started?

RH – Find others who are sincerely interested and committed for the long term.  This is something that will be long and may not see “success” (as we often define it) in our lifetime.  It’s a learning process about ourselves and others and is complex and uncomfortable.  I suggest beginning with a specific format like the Living Room Conversations that have been helpful at Retreat House or other approaches such as studying a book that offers suggestions and perhaps a format for embarking on this work.  A process using structure, order and boundaries allows everyone to share and be heard without interruption.  In other words, a place to truly listen and begin to understand is vital.

HH - I think we are in an emotional climate in which many spiritual folks are examining themselves and seeking ways to learn, change and help address the reality of racism.  Of consequence, people who are willing to publicize their interest in forming conversation groups in their own organizations will probably find other interested persons simply by publicizing their interest.  It would be important, in my opinion, for those who initiate leadership in new groups to have had enough experience in racial conversations to understand that success (whatever that might mean) comes through relationships and not through confrontation or argument.

Q. What would you say to those who feel overwhelmed or ashamed when thinking about racism?

RH – Our senior pastor has said that these conversations can be uncomfortable, but they won’t kill us and he’s right.  We’ve all lived through the conversations and are better for them.  We’ve learned so much about racism and our own unconscious role in it, how we can work to be better, areas where we can be a part of change and we’ve become closer as a group as we continue to learn. 

HH – The way through any adverse emotional condition (fear, shame, guilt, etc.) is through action.  No one can sit at home and think his/her way out of guilt, shame or fear.  Action changes thinking rather than the other way around.  In the white community, we have all been guilty.  The past is over and done with.  The present is what matters.  Relieving guilt and shame over our racism will be ameliorated most effectively through anti-racist action.

Q. What type of work do you think is left for us to do individually and collectively around racism? If you could envision change and growth in this space, how would it look?

RH – The internal work is paramount and without it, I believe we will only appear to make progress.  The last thing that we want to happen is let these efforts die for lack of commitment.  Listening to others, especially persons of color and hearing experiences of those around us builds relationships which leads to trust.  In that listening we can begin to learn and understand our own part in perpetuating racism/white supremacy, begin to admit it and accept that we played a role because that’s how the system has been built in our country.

We also need to forgive ourselves and those around us for past mistakes we may have made as part of the system in which we live.  That expression from Maya Angelou “when you know better, you do better” rings true here as in other parts of life.

Learn about the myths that maintain we are different – there are too many to count!  We are not different.  Skin comes in many beautiful hues and is in no way an indicator of the treatment we deserve from others.  Learn the shameful history of racism. It is humbling especially if our reaction has been “I’m not a racist…I have black friends…etc.”  If we’re white in America, we have benefited from racism and white supremacy and we must understand and own that so we can begin to dismantle it. There are excellent resources available – books, films, study guides, online workshops and others.  Retreat House has compiled an excellent list of resources and adds to it as new options become available.  

We must stop assuming that we as white people are the rescuers, the benefactors of charitable actions.  True change can only come from a place of partnering on an equal footing with our black neighbors to bring about equity.  Equity differs from equality and we learn that when we make the effort to understand that we’ve never had true equality in our country because not everyone has equity.

Social service is not social justice.  Yes, it is helpful and needed that we feed, clothe, house, educate and care for persons in need but justice requires different action. Social justice is fighting against policies that discriminate in housing, education, health care, employment, voting, our legal system, etc.  Most of the policies in place in organizations and government fall within the letter of the law but have very subtle ways of exclusion and differences when applied.  Those policies must be changed if equity is to be achieved.  No more looking away when we see or hear of injustice. 

The role of all is to wake up to the issues, recognize the injustices that are at play every day in every corner of our society and step up and use our voices to create change.  It won’t be in the near term so we must be steady and determined if we are to have a just society for our children and future generations who also must continue to work toward the same goal. 

HH – There is simply no end to what is left to do.  Evil will never be eradicated, and racism is one of the most destructive forms of evil in our communal and personal lives.  Nobody can do everything that needs to be done.  Anybody and everybody can do something.  Look at yourself… your talents, gifts, strengths.  Look and your family, friends, neighborhood, work environment, church.  Pray.   If you are truly concerned about racism, you will find your place in the struggle. 

Regina Hunt is a trained spiritual director and former change management and training consultant. You can reach her here. Rev. Hank Hunt is the former pastor of Woodhaven Presbyterian Church and currently a pastoral counselor in private practice. Hank and Regina are both covenant partners of Retreat House.

Emily Turner is a covenant partner of Retreat House, trained spiritual director and writer and invites you to consider this poem Joy Unspeakable by Barbara Holmes.